Council: We trust Chief Skinner, but these are extraordinary times

Presenter: City councilors made it clear Wednesday: They trust Eugene Police Chief Chris Skinner, and they do not trust the company Flock Safety. At a work session Oct. 8, Councilor Jennifer Yeh:

Councilor Jennifer Yeh: I didn’t know much about these cameras when this first came up and I’ve learned a lot over the time and I’ve learned a lot today. This is really helpful… but what it boils down to it is, I’m not sure that I can trust this company. They seem to have a track record of contracts being violated where multiple jurisdictions have found that their data was used in a way that it should not have been, but it did.

[00:00:34] So I’m not sure how I can trust this contract if both parties aren’t necessarily going to stick with it.

[00:00:43] Presenter: Councilor Matt Keating:

[00:00:45] Councilor Matt Keating: I’m concerned about neighboring jurisdictions up and down the I-5 corridor who have shared data with either a third-party entity or with the executive branch. I, too, like Councilor Yeh expressed, have great concerns about the data going to other agencies.

[00:01:03] I’m greatly concerned that such a sensitive security surveillance contract was not shared with this body on the front end at this time in history when there’s so many questions revolving around for-profit third parties accessing our data, so many concerns shared with Council about a surveillance state, agencies operating under the direction of the executive branch or even the executive branch itself thumbing their nose at recent judicial decisions—right here in Oregon—possibly accessing our data or movement, is deeply alarming.

[00:01:45] Presenter: Councilor Alan Zelenka:

[00:01:46] Councilor Alan Zelenka: My concern and criticism stems from lack of trust with the Flock corporation. Their actions and protections of data I find very troubling. Even with stronger contract language, I don’t have trust in them.

[00:02:00] More importantly, I’ve become more and more concerned with our march towards authoritarianism with the Trump administration. And I didn’t start there. But over the last eight months, I’ve become more and more alarmed by their actions.

[00:02:13] It started with questioning the election results, not even a shred of evidence. And then the actions to suppress voting, the gerrymandering to try to secure a majority in the House, and then questioning the validity of vote-by-mail, which I consider to be a giant success.

[00:02:30] And then on top of that, the Trump administration that actions to silence its critics like Jimmy Kimmel and (Stephen) Colbert and other journalists and calling for the revoking of ABC and NBC’s licenses and using the Department of Justice to seek revenge on his past opponents.

[00:02:47] They’ve also created an ICE force that operates out of unmarked vans, wearing masks, showing no identification, and snatching people off the streets, putting them in detention camps, sometimes children, sometimes citizens of the United States. It’s happened several times.

[00:03:04] So he’s creating a personal army without accountability in the ICE force, is how I see it.

[00:03:09] And then finally, and most importantly, recently using the U.S. military in our cities, under the false pretense that there’s unrest and an insurrection is mind-boggling to me. He’s putting us on the verge of martial law. Putting military troops in our cities, particularly in Portland, is unwarranted, unlawful, unconstitutional, and very dangerous. And that’s why I’m very concerned about where this is heading and the abuse that might come out of an administration like that.

[00:03:41] And it’s in that context that I view this surveillance policy. And I’m concerned with what happens to this data and who will get access to it and how the surveillance could be used and be expanded and how they may be abused by others, not by us in EPD.

[00:04:01] So, given what I see as a very troubling march towards authoritarianism, I don’t want to even collect the data or the images. The analogy I use is that the fact that we don’t collect any of the data on immigrants. We simply do not collect data on people’s status, and then other folks can’t get access to it, and they can’t abuse it. And if we don’t collect it, they can’t get it.

[00:04:31] So despite the efforts of the chief and the staff and all the contract language, it really comes down to a matter of trust for me beyond EPD. And I simply don’t trust Flock, and I don’t trust the Trump administration, given where we are today. And continuing with this program just isn’t worth the benefits that we’re seeing. I’m very, very concerned about this.

[00:04:57] Presenter: Councilor Eliza Kashinsky:

[00:04:59] Councilor Eliza Kashinsky: I think if we were having this conversation about the risks and benefits of Flock this time last year, it would have been a different conversation. But we can’t really ignore the extraordinary times we find ourselves in.

[00:05:12] We have a federal government that is targeting and demonizing our transgendered neighbors, that is conducting immigration raids on wildland firefighters actively engaged in fighting fires and detaining long -time residents while they are risking their lives to protect our community.

[00:05:26] We have a national government that is attempting to send unneeded and unwanted National Guard troops into our neighboring cities over the objections of state and local leaders.

[00:05:36] Unlike our local law enforcement, I do not believe that they are trying to keep our community safe. I believe that there’s significant risk that this data, in other hands, could and would be used not to help protect our community, but to try and cause harm to our community members.

[00:05:54] I believe and trust that our local Eugene Police Department would not intentionally misuse this data and that we could put local safeguards and policies in place. I believe that your motivation is to keep our community safe and I appreciate the hard work that you do, but the fact of the matter is that even with the updates to the contract, Flock retains significant control over this data and to be blunt, I don’t trust Flock. They are a national for-profit company and their motivations are different than ours.

[00:06:22] I put a lot of thought into this and listened to and considered a lot of different perspectives and we have to balance the risk that this data will be misused by others and make our community less safe, with the potential that it has to help us solve crimes. And given the current national environment and the venue that we’re working with, at this time I feel like the risks that weigh the benefits. This is the wrong tool at the wrong time. And I can’t support us continuing to use it.

[00:06:51] So I’m going to make a motion. I’m going to move to direct the city manager to turn off the Flock cameras.

[00:06:57] Councilor Alan Zelenka: Second.

[00:06:58] Presenter: City Attorney Kathryn Brotherton:

[00:07:00] Kathryn Brotherton (Eugene, city attorney): Now that a motion has been made and seconded, that is the motion on the table. And then, so, the discussion should be to the motion. And if Councilor Kashinsky wants to withdraw the motion and the second just to allow the remainder of the conversation and then put it back on the table. That’s an option. But at this point, that is the motion on the table and the discussion should go to the motion.

[00:07:19] Presenter: Mayor Kaarin Knudson:

[00:07:21] Kaarin Knudson (Eugene, mayor): Councilor Groves, discussion of the motion?

[00:07:23] Councilor Randy Groves: Well, I actually want to discuss the whole issue and get my questions answered too, but Councilor Kashinsky has decided to usurp our ability to be involved in the discussion. So, until I get my questions answered, I’m going to be a ‘No’ vote on this because I feel that my voice has been taken away from me and I resent that.

[00:07:44] Presenter: He was still upset the next day. At the Eugene Police Commission meeting Oct. 9, Councilor Randy Groves:

[00:07:51] Councilor Randy Groves: I just want to speak a little bit about the Council work session yesterday. I came out of that very frustrated. There were about half the Council, we were in the queue to ask questions, and one of our colleagues made a motion just to take the cameras down. And when a motion is made like that under Robert’s Rules of Order, you can’t discuss anything else.

[00:08:15] We were barred from asking our questions that we had, and I still have questions I want to ask and a discussion I want to have. And I believe some of the other councilors that were cut off had the same feeling.

[00:08:28] And the councilor that made that motion was given the option of withdrawing it until we could finish the process of the discussion, which, that’s what I was looking forward to was a lively discussion, looking at the facts and hearing from each of my colleagues. And that was taken away from us.

[00:08:46] So my hope is that we can come back at this and finish what we started and really have a thorough and in-depth discussion and make sure we get all the facts that we possibly can.

[00:08:57] So that is my hope at this time. The original motion also overstepped the charter, and so we had another councilor that made an amended motion, and that one did pass, and we all voted for it.

[00:09:11] I voted for it as well, but in part because I want to get back and finish what we started, and at least be able to look at each other and say, ‘Okay, we’ve vetted this.’ I don’t believe that’s happened yet. You know, half the council vetted it, half did not. You know, and also we’re now getting a lot of emails from people who are upset that the Flock system is proposed to be discontinued.

[00:09:36] You know, I still want to work through the process before we get to the final answer and I don’t believe we’ve done that. So I just wanted to share that. That’s my perspective and my opinion. And I think there’s still work to be done.

[00:09:50] The other piece I want to share is listening to my colleagues, and I agree with what I heard, which was the majority, that the apprehension is not with Chief Skinner or the EPD. And it’s nothing against the officers.

[00:10:09] The concern was with Flock as a company and as a privately-held company. And I think some politics are getting mixed in with reality, but that is people’s reality. And I understand and I’m sensitive to how people are feeling about the direction our country is going right now, and we’re getting some spillover on that.

[00:10:33] I’ve got to believe if this were a time where we didn’t have all the conflict we have now on a national basis, the discussion about this tool would be very different. And keep in mind, we are challenging all of our department heads and city manager to be looking for ways, when we don’t have adequate funding, we don’t have adequate staffing in a lot of areas: How can we close that gap with technology? And that’s really what the license plate reader system is.

[00:11:04] And now the question is, where do we go from here? And you know, again, I’m looking forward to continued discussions on that.

[00:11:12] Presenter: Councilor Yeh:

[00:11:13] Councilor Jennifer Yeh: We unanimously recommended to the city manager that she have the cameras stop taking pictures while we have a larger community conversation about the system. So yes, so that has been recommended to the city manager,.and I assume she will do her due diligence and report back to Council about next steps that we could take, which was also part of the motion.

[00:11:39] Presenter: Eugene’s city manager is asked to turn off the Flock cameras, pending further discussion and a policy decision by the council.